Question about box set's "Butch Cassidy" disc
Moderator: mark
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Bill
Question about box set's "Butch Cassidy" disc
The "HAECO-CSG system" was referenced in one of the reviews of the new Hip-O Select box set. Could someone please elaborate? This is a term with which I am unfamiliar.
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Bill
"Butch" CD
No one posted a follow-up to my question so I looked into it myself. Here's something I ran across from a discussion group. Based on this information I suppose one could infer that the original, pre-mixed masters no longer exist if in fact Hip-O Select used the same tape that was used to mix the original album back when the album was first released in 1969. Does anyone else read it this way? Thanks for any input. In any case, it's too bad if the original tapes are lost. It'd be great to hear some of the outtakes from those sessions, though that's something Burt himself probably wouldn't be interested in or, for that matter, willing to sign off on.
Here's the post I found about "CSG." The "HAECO" part of the acronym is still a mystery.
This is for those who want to know what the CSG process was. WARNING: This does get a little bit technical. "CSG" stands for "Compatible Stereo Groove", and was an attempt spearheaded by Warners in 1968/9 to address a little remembered fact concerning listening to stereo material in mono. When you "collapse" a stereo mix into mono, whatever is mixed to the center of the image increases in apparent loudness by 3db. Thus, you are altering the balance of the mix, making whatever was panned center louder than intended. The CSG process addressed this by the process of variable progressive phase cancellation. It took the image and applied a varible L minus R signal to it, which affected the center most, and progressively less to sounds panned from center to the extreme left or right. It didn't provide a total cancellation, just enough so that center sounds cancelled by 3db when heard in mono, and less as the mix widened. Just one problem. IT SOUNDED HORRIBLE! While it sounded passable in mono, in stereo, these treated discs have indistinct imaging,and poor sloppy sounding bass.
Here's the post I found about "CSG." The "HAECO" part of the acronym is still a mystery.
This is for those who want to know what the CSG process was. WARNING: This does get a little bit technical. "CSG" stands for "Compatible Stereo Groove", and was an attempt spearheaded by Warners in 1968/9 to address a little remembered fact concerning listening to stereo material in mono. When you "collapse" a stereo mix into mono, whatever is mixed to the center of the image increases in apparent loudness by 3db. Thus, you are altering the balance of the mix, making whatever was panned center louder than intended. The CSG process addressed this by the process of variable progressive phase cancellation. It took the image and applied a varible L minus R signal to it, which affected the center most, and progressively less to sounds panned from center to the extreme left or right. It didn't provide a total cancellation, just enough so that center sounds cancelled by 3db when heard in mono, and less as the mix widened. Just one problem. IT SOUNDED HORRIBLE! While it sounded passable in mono, in stereo, these treated discs have indistinct imaging,and poor sloppy sounding bass.
Sorry I didn't see your question earlier, and yes, I probably should have addressed it here for those unfamiliar with it.
As I stated in my review, it was a reposting of the review that I did in A&M Corner's site. A lot of the folks there are quite familiar with the HAECO-CSG system, so my casual mention of it might have come as a bit of a question mark here.
A little less-technical explanation of the history of HAECO-CSG-style processing:
Back in the '60s, there were basically two kinds of recording and broadcasting: stereo and mono. AM stations were all mono, FM's were getting more popular because of their fidelity and their ability to broadcast in stereo.
Typically, single 45 records were put out in mono, and albums were available in both mono and stereo.
What next occured was the unintended consequence: playing a stereo record on a mono radio station. Engineering types began to notice a degradation in the sound which was traced back to the source recording being slightly out of phase. This resulted in a muddiness of whatever was in the center channel of the stereo, usually the vocal. Thus, the mono stations usually opted for the mono version of albums.
In the late '60s, record companies began to see the emerging trend that record buyers were opting for the stereo versions more readily, ultimately surpassing the mono sales. So their goal was to eliminate the pressing of mono albums in order to save money. That's where HAECO-CSG entered the picture.
With this system, portions of the stereo image where phase-shifted intentionally, so that when summed-to-mono, no degradation of the sound would occur. The theory was that stereo listeners wouldn't mind it - it was stereo after all, and that mono stations wouldn't have any problem with it either - a perfect solution, so they thought.
Unfortunately, in the digital age, where everyone has their iPods and Walkmans fed into their ears via headphones, the uncomfortable processing is noticed and not thought of fondly. In fact it is REALLY uncomfortable to listen to with headphones - not as bad with an open speaker system.
And unfortunately, once the system was applied to the master, there's nothing out there to counter it. Only going back to pre-mixed master elements could un-do the damage, and that would require a total remixing from the start. Many of these pre-mixed elemnts are gone, with the HAECO-CSG'd masters all that survives today.
There are quite a few albums by Warners and A&M that used this system. If the liner notes and credits are faithful on the CDs, you can usually find it somewhere. BUTCH CASSIDY was the Bacharach title that got this treatment. For Herb Alpert it was THE BRASS ARE COMIN'. Sergio Mendes had it done to his YE-ME-LE and GREATEST HITS album, etc. All of these were late '60s to early '70s albums. After that the practice disappeared for the most part, although there were still some promo singles that used it well into the mid '70s.
Listen to BUTCH CASSIDY with headphones and you'll hear what I mean. The best descriptive words are that the sound locations in the stereo image are unfocused and that the overall sound is uncomforatable. It's like having a headcold and one ear clogged...
Harry
As I stated in my review, it was a reposting of the review that I did in A&M Corner's site. A lot of the folks there are quite familiar with the HAECO-CSG system, so my casual mention of it might have come as a bit of a question mark here.
A little less-technical explanation of the history of HAECO-CSG-style processing:
Back in the '60s, there were basically two kinds of recording and broadcasting: stereo and mono. AM stations were all mono, FM's were getting more popular because of their fidelity and their ability to broadcast in stereo.
Typically, single 45 records were put out in mono, and albums were available in both mono and stereo.
What next occured was the unintended consequence: playing a stereo record on a mono radio station. Engineering types began to notice a degradation in the sound which was traced back to the source recording being slightly out of phase. This resulted in a muddiness of whatever was in the center channel of the stereo, usually the vocal. Thus, the mono stations usually opted for the mono version of albums.
In the late '60s, record companies began to see the emerging trend that record buyers were opting for the stereo versions more readily, ultimately surpassing the mono sales. So their goal was to eliminate the pressing of mono albums in order to save money. That's where HAECO-CSG entered the picture.
With this system, portions of the stereo image where phase-shifted intentionally, so that when summed-to-mono, no degradation of the sound would occur. The theory was that stereo listeners wouldn't mind it - it was stereo after all, and that mono stations wouldn't have any problem with it either - a perfect solution, so they thought.
Unfortunately, in the digital age, where everyone has their iPods and Walkmans fed into their ears via headphones, the uncomfortable processing is noticed and not thought of fondly. In fact it is REALLY uncomfortable to listen to with headphones - not as bad with an open speaker system.
And unfortunately, once the system was applied to the master, there's nothing out there to counter it. Only going back to pre-mixed master elements could un-do the damage, and that would require a total remixing from the start. Many of these pre-mixed elemnts are gone, with the HAECO-CSG'd masters all that survives today.
There are quite a few albums by Warners and A&M that used this system. If the liner notes and credits are faithful on the CDs, you can usually find it somewhere. BUTCH CASSIDY was the Bacharach title that got this treatment. For Herb Alpert it was THE BRASS ARE COMIN'. Sergio Mendes had it done to his YE-ME-LE and GREATEST HITS album, etc. All of these were late '60s to early '70s albums. After that the practice disappeared for the most part, although there were still some promo singles that used it well into the mid '70s.
Listen to BUTCH CASSIDY with headphones and you'll hear what I mean. The best descriptive words are that the sound locations in the stereo image are unfocused and that the overall sound is uncomforatable. It's like having a headcold and one ear clogged...
Harry
Harry from A&M Corner
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Bill
Thanks for that explanation, Harry. This probably explains why the disc has never been remastered and reissued previously. Any improvement over the original CD issue would probably be marginal at best, given the situation you describe. The sound quality of that CD has always been a disappointment to me. I guess modern CD technology, however, may help to improve the overall sound somewhat. I trust I'll find out soon enough. I placed my order for the box set earlier this week!
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BachToBacharach
StereOmonic
Several of Dionne Warwick's late 60s albums were released in "StereOmonic" which either incorporated the HAECO-CSG system or duplicated it. Scepter also used the technique with BJ Thomas and others on the label. Dionne Warwick in Valley of the Dolls was the last Scepter album released in both Stereo and Mono mixes.