Knowing When to Leave - Carpenters' non medley version

[pljms]

I found a non-medley version by the Carpenters of 'Knowing When to Leave' on Youtube and I'm wondering what collection of theirs it's on. The arrangement is essentially the same as the one on their Bacharach & David Medley track, although it's quite a bit slower and has a long instrumental fade. I've often wondered what Bacharach thought of the way they changed the melody of the chorus. Not a lot I should imagine:

[BachtoBacharach]

Interesting version...bland but interesting. Love the Carpenters but Richard Carpenter had a way of sort of homogenizing arrangements and Karen had a gorgeous voice but was such a laid back vocalist. Love Karen's pure tone but again, no tension or excitement. This has none of the tension of Jill O'Hara's version from the original Broadway show, Bacharach's 1969 arrangement for Dionne Warwick or his instrumental version. Love the coda in Warwick's recording-pure Bacharach all the way. I imagine you are right in your assessment of what Bacharach would think of this. The Bacharach/Warwick recording was so layered and nuanced...Dionne's voice as instrument...none of that in the Carpenters recording, alas.

[Sara D]

Save for the changing of the melodic line in the chorus, I don't have a problem with the Carpenters' version as it's what you expect from them. Considering it's not known to the general public, 'Knowing When to Leave' has been covered a remarkable amount of times. The two versions I consider the best are sadly still not available on CD, both 45s in 1969 by Sue Raney and Gordon MacRae. I personally find Dionne Warwick's interpretation curiously disengaged and the arrangement (not by Bacharach and I haven't got the album at hand to check, although it was possibly by Artie Butler) very tired sounding and uninspired.

[BachtoBacharach]

Actually it was a Burt Bacharach arrangement on Dionne's version of Knowing When to Leave; just checked the album notes and also Mark's web site. Butler didn't arrange any of the tunes on the I'll Never Fall in Love Again album. Bacharch played piano on that version as well as Dionne's I'll Never Fall In Love Again arranged by Bacharach and Larry Wilcox. Jill O'Hara's version remains the best...Dionne's is good as always, I think but you are right about her being unusually detached from the tune...but maybe in the context of the tune in the play, detached hurt is appropriate...the performance is detached but effective... but would have loved to hear Jill with the Bacharach arrangement Dionne used which is the best of them all IMHO. I just find the Carpenters versions of Bacharach (except for Close to You) really strip the "Bacharach" out but that's just me...sometime they were too lethargic sounding. Karen was the absolute best with those soft pop-rock numbers like Rainy Days and Mondays and Top of the World. Am not familiar with either of the other versions you mention but will have to check them out. One tune "Whoever You Are I Love You" was recorded by Dionne before the play ever opened...flip side of the Promises, Promises hit single she recorded in September 1968 and that tune has not been covered many times at all...and Dionne's original version of the tune is just astonishing. She builds the anguish and heartbreak slowly until the chilling coda...wow! Maybe that's why it remains relatively uncovered...that and of course the context of the tune in the show.

Here is the C & P from Mark's web-site: Dionne Warwick, I’ll Never Fall in Love Again (LP Sceptre 581, 5/1970): The Wine Is Young (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [arranged by Burt Bacharach] / I’ll Never Fall in Love Again (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [arranged by Burt Bacharach & Larry Wilcox] / Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [arranged by Larry Wilcox] / Loneliness Remembers what Happiness Forgets (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [arranged by Burt Bacharach] / Paper Machè (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [recorded 3/4/1970, arranged by Burt Bacharach] / Knowing When to Leave (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [recorded 3/4/1970, arranged by Burt Bacharach] / Let Me Go to Him (Burt Bachararach & Hal David) [recorded 12/1/1969, arranged by Burt Bacharach] Produced by Burt Bachararach & Hal David

[Sara D]

Yes, that will teach me to commit myself before checking the album notes! Not Bacharach's finest hour as an arranger, I don't think, especially when compared to his own instrumental version from the year before which positively soares while the arrangement for DW remains grounded.

Gordon MacRae's version was also included on an album of his entitled 'It's Only Love', which also contains his take on 'Whoever you are, I Love You'. As far as I know, Sue Raney's recording was a 45 only and has not been included on any subsequent CD compilation.

[pljms]

You know, Sara, I'd made the same assumption about Dionne's recording of this unique song as the arrangement and production are just so lifeless and as flat as the proverbial pancake. It just goes to show that the combination of Dionne Warwick with a composition and arrangement by Bacharach didn't always guarantee magic.

I'm lucky to have both the Gordon MacRae and Sue Raney versions on vinyl and they're both superb, well sung versions with Claus Ogerman supplying an imaginative arrangement for MacRae. As for Jill O'Hara's version I really can't take her voice and avoid it at all costs.

[BachtoBacharach]

Jill O'Hara was great in the play...and her version in that context was superb...the arrangement in the play was a little too sparse for my taste and her interpretation of the tune does not stand alone outside that context...but in that context it was great...Bacharach's instrumental arrangement was good, admittedly better than his arrangement for Dionne, but sort of like comparing apples and oranges... his instrumental arrangement was not a vocal arrangement. I still believe bad Dionne/Burt is better than 90 percent of whatever others are out there...it was the first version I was exposed to other than the play version in the States. Have never understood why Burt's original versions of these tunes weren't hits in the UK with some exceptions like Walk On By or San Jose. Promises, Promises never hit in the UK like so many others...was shocked to learn years ago that Sacha Distel had the UK hit with Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head, not BJ Thomas. Burt was a cult icon in the UK back as early as 1965 but he didn't have near the chart success with his originals in the UK as he did in the US and other parts of the world. Although Dionne had some big hits in the UK and was idolized there as most Black US artists who achieved fame were but it didn't translate into the UK chart success she had most everywhere else. But UK audiences are loyal and treat artists like Dionne, Aretha, etc as royalty unlike the fickle US audiences. I know that Pye records was the distributor for DIonne's recordings in the 60s there and did such a poor job promoting them. Much has been written about Dusty Springfield as though she worked with Burt a great deal. She actually worked with him on one recording, the brilliant The Look of Love...Wishin' and Hopin' was originally recorded by Dionne, covered by Dusty and hit in the US but was snubbed in the UK. Dusty COVERED Bacharach a lot but did not work with him much at all. Jackie DeShannon, a brilliant interpreter of original Bacharach material and second only to Dionne, was not a success in the UK...What the World Needs Now never hit big there. Jackie worked with Bacharach on at least two sessions and recorded about 4 or 5 original tunes with him producing...more than any other female singer in the 60s other than Dionne. Perhaps it's because she was not nearly as successful as Dionne or in the UK, Dusty that she has not been as recognised for her interpretations of Bacharach. Interesting to note that most every Bacharach hit in the UK was a cover and most had no participation with him as producer or arranger..with a few notable exceptions. His instrumental of Trains, Boats and Planes or the aforementioned Dionne hits of Walk On By and San Jose. Herb Alpert's cover of This Guy's In Love With You was a #3 hit in the UK in '68 but the tune was actually recorded earlier in 1967 by several other artists after Dusty Springfield and Dionne Warwick allegedly turned it down although concurrent Dionne and Dusty cover versions would surface later that year. Herb's version hit #1 in the US in 1968 and DIonne would hit #7 on the US charts with her gender switched version (recorded in mid-1968) a mere 6 months after Herb's version hit #1 in the US.

[Bill Minnick]

By chance does anyone have MP3s of the Gordon MacRae recordings that they'd be willing to share?

[Hank]

Remember that fabulously breathless version of Knowing When to Leave by Dusty Springfield ? - I think it may have come from one of Burt's TV specials. Can't properly evaluate the arrangement but for sheer joie de vivre, it must rank with the best of the KWTL vocal performances. I have a very low quality MP3 of it somewhere but I'm surprised it's nowhere to be seen on Youtube - though there is a least one lesser Dusty rendition there.

[BachtoBacharach]

I believe it came from a UK television special Dusty did or perhaps a series from around 1969, if I recall correctly. It was a super performance by Dusty; she was at her breathless best! I do wonder why Dusty was never as hot in the USA as another UK import here, Petula Clark. Tony Hatch did produce many big hits for Petula and was consistent but Dusty never had the sure hand of a producer and that consistency like Petula with Hatch or Dionne with Bacharach. Petula had a lovely voice but Dusty's voice was unique but sometimes her choice of material was not up to her pipes...she deserved better promotion and material than she got. Bacharach/David/Warwick were really a big brand in the 60s when it comes right down to it and hard to compete with and perhaps that hurt Dusty here more than in the UK...but that assured a consistent audience and sold lots of records for Bacharach/David/Warwick. Dusty's greatest performances, IMHO, were The Son of a Preacher Man, Windmills of Your Mind, and of course The Look of Love...only Son made the top 10 in the US and UK. Go figure! Dusty in Memphis flopped terribly in the US (it hit #99) and UK (it didn't even chart) and only in recent years, thankfully, has been recognized as the wonderful classic it is. Dusty only charted in the US three times in the top 10, Wishin' and Hopin', You Don't Have to Say You Love Me, and Son of a Preacher Man. Dusty had 10 top 10 hits in the UK but only two were US hits. On the other hand, Dionne's 1969 Memphis recordings on the LP Soulful (produced by Warwick and Chips Moman) hit # 11 on the Billboard Hot 100 album chart and #2 on the Billboard R & B Chart in the US and contained the #16 hit remake of "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" but didn't chart in the UK.

[Hank]

This Dusty talk is bringing our old friend Keith Burke to mind.
It was he that pointed me to Dusty's post Dusty in Memphis catalog and I am eternaly grateful.
I just got a hold of her Cameo album recently and, as is the norm with Dusty, there are a few gems there.
Here's to Keith !!